Did Bill Gates tell a big fat fib regarding what Microsoft pays the holders of H-1B visas while in Washington last year lobbying lawmakers and cajoling journalists for looser immigration policies?
(Update: Microsoft responds.)
And did David Broder, the prominent Washington political columnist, pass that fib along to his readers without so much as a raised eyebrow?
Both would appear to be the case, at least based on an analysis provided by offshoring critic Robert Oak and posted yesterday to a pair of popular political blogs, MyDD (Direct Democracy) and DailyKos.
Broder reported that Gates told him H1-B hires start at about $100,000 a year. The key paragraph:
As Gates said, these are highly paid, highly qualified individuals. Salaries for these jobs at Microsoft start at about $100,000 a year. Their counterparts can be hired more cheaply in China or India, he said, but Microsoft does 85 percent of its research and development work in the United States because it wants its computer scientists interacting directly with its program managers and its marketing people on its own campus.
And here's the meat of what Oak provided, based on an analysis of green-card applications:
Unfortunately for Bill Gates, when a corporation sponsors a green card, they must publish the actual salary along with the application.
From the graph above and the table below, only 3.3%, or 40 employees, of the 1,202 total green card applications submitted by Microsoft had wages above $100k.
In fact, more applications, 8.3%, or 92 employees, were paid salaries below $60k. Most of the jobs titles of the 1,202 applications were Software Engineer, an entry level job indicator.
The median salary for all was $71k, well below the $100k that Bill Gates touted in his claim of a great shortage of "talent" in America (read cheap, controllable and young).
I am generally sympathetic toward backers of looser immigration policies, in general, and H-1B limits, specifically. However, central to the latter position has long been the often-repeated contention that H-1B visas go primarily to highly specialized, highly compensated professionals who are otherwise difficult if not impossible to find here in the states.If that's not the case, then the argument in favor of lifting H1-B ceilings weakens considerably.Maybe there's an explanation that Oak didn't provide and isn't apparent in the numbers. One gap in the analysis is the absence of any source reference for the data. I've sent Oak an e-mail asking for that information.
(Update: In an e-mail, Oak responds: "The diary yesterday, is really to the credit of Dr. Ron Hira's statistical analysis via Excel. The source of the data is Microsoft green card, or permanent resident applications themselves, submitted to the USCIS.")
There are also questions being raised about whether Oak is mixing apples and oranges by applying green-card data to the H1-B salary discussion, which one poster to DailyKos addressed this way:
If you are wondering whether comparing green-card data to H-1B data is valid, the answer is yes. In fact most employment-based green-card applications are for workers already here on H-1B work permits. So, the salary data for green-card holders actually overstates what they are likely paying H-1B holders, since the green-card applications are for workers who have been with a company for a couple of years.
(Update: In this subsequent post, Norm Matloff, a professor of computer science at the University of California, Davis, says there's no apples/oranges issue here.)
I've also contacted Broder and Microsoft (sorry, I've misplaced Bill's direct number) for their reactions.
Updates to follow as warranted (Microsoft's PR firm tells me it's seeking a reply).
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Salaries at Microsoft
Two possible reasons why Gates may have been correct:
* Engineers at Microsoft receive part of their compensation as bonuses. The numbers given on the visa applications are for base salaries.
* Microsoft typically jacks salaries up for new hires after the first year. Perhaps there's a confusion between *initial* salaries and their salaries 1-2 years after the first year.
(I work for a computer company -- not Microsoft.)
Is it possible that Bill
Is it possible that Bill meant that those employees cost Microsoft more than 100 k$ apiece? The 'fully-loaded cost' of an employee tends to be much greater than that person's salary.
Not to mention, many are
Not to mention, many are hired through 3rd party firms who take a cut off the top of what the employee actually takes home. It's not unreasonable at all to suggest Microsoft averages $100k
H1-B workers
There over 10,000 unemployed software, telecom and other engineers just in the Dallas area. They were fired and replaced by H1-B workers making $30-40K a year. They're brought in, trained, kept here for a couple of years, then sent back and replaced, while the US worker sells video games at Circuit City.
That's the actual truth about H1-B workers
My previous employer would
My previous employer would hire H1B visa holders since he could control them. When he had a shortage of contracts the US citizens would get fired or layed off first. The holder of H1B visa made rarely over $30k.
Where I work it is closer to $25k for a H1B visa programmer from India. As for outsourcing they have sweat shops in India where the engineers work 6 to 7 days a week and often almost live there as they work over 12 hrs. According to management, with the money I make they could hire 5 of those in India. (I am making less than $60k)
I think outsourcing is more of a danger than the H1B visas even though it is also a serious threat to US jobs.
Here we go again, what a load of crap
Enough of H1B bashing. I am a naturalized US citizen of Indian origin. When I came to this country in 1996 H1, I had 5 years of experience was paid 65k. Within a year, I moved to a different job (moving to a differnt job is easy while on H1) and was getting 75k, again on an H1. I made sure I was not being underpaid than the market rates. I got what I asked for, did not even have to negotiate with the hiring manger.
A year later I moved to a large networking company, at a starting salary of 83k + stock options + an excellent bonus plan. My base salary + bonus was way above 100k, not counting the stock appreciation and other benefits.
By the time I got my green card in 2000, I was making more than 110k base salary.
I've several friends who have moved between jobs like I did, while on H1, and who were being paid competitive salaries (as published in salary surveys in EEtimes and other reputable publications).
Abuse of H1 visas does take place, and it is usually in so called "body-shopping" companies. These companies get, people from India and place them at a client company. But, even in this case, the Body-shopping company bills the client top dollar, but exploits its employee, by paying them quite less than what they charge their clients.
So, argument that the people on H1B Visas keep the wages down does not fly. Because, as far as the company that employs H1B contractors, they are not the H1B contractors any less than what they would have paid a regular employee.
I would say, give the people who work in these body shopping companies some credit; they don't stick around long there. At the first opportunity they jump ship and move on to a better paying job.
The solution to this problem seems to be either completely stop issuing H1 visas.
But, if we stop issuing H1 visas completely or decrease their numbers significantly, then more and more jobs will be shipped overseas, as companies will find ways to cut costs.
People on H1 visas do contribute to the economy and pay taxes. Many of them are indeed highly talented engineers and scientists with advanced degrees acquired in US. These people go on to start companies which generate employment to many other US citizens and in many cases contribute to keeping the US on the leading edge as compared to other developed countries.
We are willing to give Green cards and citizenship to 11 million illegal immigrants (who are equally hard working still entered illegally). But, when it comes to people on H1, who come here legally and jump through hoops to make a descent live for themselves, we want to make it harder for them and cry wolf.
Your experience is in the minority
You got lucky. The use of H1B visa is not meant to give people like you a chance to work here but to have a captive market.
I had the experience of seeing fellow workers replaced by H1B visa holders quite often. There is no shortage of qualified workers in the USA but a shortage of cheap labor or labor that enjoy doing unpaid overtime.
A solution to keeping qualified people is not to hire H1B visa holders but to treat the workers correctly. A worker on an H1B visa is easier to coerce into unpaid overtime over long periods of time. A local worker is not likely to take that kind of crap for long. An H1B visa has no choice beside going back home.
If the government feels that they need more workers, they should make it easier for Americans to go to college instead of using the controlled immigration style of H1B visa. They're too busy getting the fat cats richer than to care about American workers.
Before you go on with your "load of crap" misinformation bull get yourself informed about the real situation from engineers who have lost their jobs because of the H1B visa program.
The H1B visa program should be completely eliminated and replaced by a more liberal immigration policy with some quotas where the immigrant would be able to work anywhere he wants if he finds out he's getting screwed. Those Immigrants should be only accepted if no one is available for the job they are seeking.
Response to "Your experience is in the minority"
"The use of H1B visa is not meant to give people like you a chance to work here but to have a captive market...A worker on an H1B visa is easier to coerce into unpaid overtime over long periods of time. A local worker is not likely to take that kind of crap for long. An H1B visa has no choice beside going back home."
-- WRONG; this is patently incorrect. Go read AC21 and about H-1B portability provisions. You'll find that an H-1B worker has at least as many rights as a US Citizen/LPR worker with the added special benefits from the Department of Labor W&H division. If an employer does not pay, pays lower than prevailing wage or gets benched, the H-1B worker can complain, get temporary protected status until another job is found, and all the back wages returned to him/her. It happens all the time.
The simple fact is that employers will hire workers who work hard and contribute to the bottom line. Most of these H-1B workers do that. And most of the people who get laid off (Citizen or not) do not. Thats how business works, and you or your friends out of a job would probably still be out of a job, even if the H-1B didn't exist. The H-1B simply gives an additional option to employers who no longer have a limited pool to find workers from. I'll bet that employers are just tired of hiring overpaid and lazy employees who just don't care about work or the company.
The guy to whom you are responding to didn't just "Get lucky". His experience is the norm. Educate yourself about the program and read up on this instead of sitting around with unemployed friends cooking up virulent old wives tales.
The anti-competition provisions H-1B bashers advocate are more appropriate under communist regimes, not capitalistic democracies like the US.
Oh Please....
I'm a US citizen with degrees in both management and IT, several years experience in the IT business, and I've been unemployed for 2 years now because I'm "underqualified". No, I'm not underqualified at all. I'm too expensive for most companies who want cheap labor. Most H-1b's that come here are in their 20's and early 30's, have no expectations of any benefits (and receive none), and are paid far lower than the listed "prevailing" wage in that industry. And while the H-1b's do pay taxes (it's required), they do NOT spend their discretionary income here. Most of their extra money (what little they have) goes back to their home country to finance the governments there. So not only are Americans (who, by the way, are the only people in the US who are *entitled* to US jobs...) being displaced, but our capital and revenues are as well. Corporations love H-1b workers because they are cheap, desperate, and disposable. They hate American workers because we aren't cheap and refuse to be disposable. However, more and more US workers are becoming desperate. Bill Gates is wrong when he says there is a shortage of "qualified" US workers. There is no shortage of qualified US workers. Gates is simply using that as an excuse to hire cheap labor at the expense of the American consumer.
O no, not another Job Thief
As for enough of H1B bashing, you have not seen nothing yet, Americans are just starting to wakeup and relize the they are being invaded by SCABS. And as for you being a naturalized US citizen, no way in hell are a US citizen, if are 100% still an Indian as clearly seen by your posting. See we are all on to you.
I will take 11 million illegal immigrants from South America anyday then 1 Indian.
Please remember, once a Thief, always a Thief,
Indians are so full of themself, If they are so great, then WHY not stay home and make your own country better, India is still the most begger country in the whole world, and if not stop the indians will make the US a third world country. It's just a matter of time, anyone who does not beleive this, print this article and keep it for 5 years and you will see that if not stopped, they will, they will, INVADE the US and bring it down to the LOWEST level. In many parts of the US they already have. For every indian in the US, an American has been laid-off and replaced after training the job thief from India.
SHAMELESS SCABS! SHAMELESS!