 More than fireworks were exploding last July 4th, as that was the day CCIE trainer - Internetwork Expert announced they were the leaders in the CCIE training industry. |
According to Internetwork Expert, a review of information publicly available on competing CCIE training vendor websites proved that Internetwork Expert certifies more CCIEs than the competition.
Competitor IPexpert acknowledged and commended Internetwork Expert for providing great CCIE R&S training materials.
However simultaneously, IPexpert commissioned The Tolly Group to perform a comparative analysis between IPexpert and Internetwork Expert that evaluated which CCIE R&S training provider delivered the best overall value.
The Tolly Group evaluated IPexpert and Internetwork Expert based on 5 criteria that IPexpert believed to be important to CCIE students (as explained in the report's abstract):
| 1. | Classroom training: |
What types of classes are offered and their frequency?
What programs/materials are available and at what cost?
What equipment resources are available to students for lab purposes? At what cost?
How many students have earned certifications through the vendor training programs? In what technical areas have they been certified? Have students returned to a training provider vendor for additional certifications?
What programs do the training provider put in place to guarantee to the student that his or her training investment is protected and that the student will receive the proper training and preparation to pass CCIE testing?
Abstract from the Tolly report:
IPexpert, Inc. commissioned The Tolly Group to evaluate IPexpert/Proctor Labs CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Preparation tools versus Internetwork Expert/Graded Labs offerings. Selection criteria used for this paper was mapped to the criteria that IPexpert believes is important to the buyer. While this is a head-to-head review, The Tolly Group did not contact Internetwork Experts about its product, because information utilized came directly from the company Web site.
The goal of the comparative review was to assess which training services provider delivers a better overall value, backed by a competent professional staff and a stable of certified graduates that demonstrates the effectiveness of the company’s training.
Note: All data was collected by Tolly from each vendor's website on October 15th, 2008.
1. Classroom training:
Tolly report key finding:
According to Figure 1 above, IPexpert's bootcamp cost $1,504 more, however, it provides a $1,000 credit towards its self-study products and provides 6 publicly-offered classes over a six-month period, while Internetwork Expert provides just 3 publicly-offered classes over a six-month period.
Tolly report key finding:
According to Figure 2 above, IPexpert's End-to-End Program cost $1,004 more, however, it also provides its students with the entire self-study product line of IPexpert along with 200 hours of access to IPexpert's racks of hardware, allowing students to prepare for its live course.
| Official Internetworking Expert Response: |
"After examining the Tolly Group report that was paid for by IPexpert in detail, anyone can see that it is obviously a biased comparison of two websites, and not an in-depth evaluation of any class or product. Not only is the information presented in the report egregiously inaccurate, there is no real information in regards to what matters most to customers that invest in training at the CCIE level.
"When speaking in terms of value in the CCIE training market, the key factor that customers are looking for is a combination of the reputation of the authors & instructors of the material, the reputation of the company, and most importantly, the feedback from their peers. This report is based on none of these factors. In fact very few, if any, purchases are based exclusively upon information listed on a webpage, which is solely what was used to generate this report."
Brian McGahan - CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security)
2. Self-study programs:
Tolly report key finding:
According to Figure 3 above, IPexpert's $2,186 package discount makes the total cost of its Self-study program (with video tutorials and graded mock labs included) $996 less than Internetwork Expert.
3. Rack rental options:
Tolly report key finding:
IPexpert's rack rental session runs 7 hours, 45 minutes at a cost of $35. The same rack rental session at Internetwork Expert would cost $18.60
IPexpert allows rack rental cancelation or rescheduling up to 24 hours prior to a scheduled session, however, Internetworking Expert requires notice of cancelation or rescheduling 3 days prior to a scheduled session.
| Official Internetworking Expert Response: |
"In reviewing previous reports published by the Tolly Group, it seems unprecedented that a report could be generated based solely on marketing information, or even be relevant to a market such as training. Per the Tolly Group's website their 'expertise [is] in assessing leading-edge technologies,' and as a 'premier independent test lab, it has worked with virtually every major vendor and evaluated the most important products and technologies to appear over the past decade.' How can it be possible that a test lab bases their scientific results based on marketing information?
"For example, a recent report written by the Tolly Group evaluated the performance and power consumption of the BLADE Network Technologies RackSwitch G8100 versus a Cisco Catalyst 4900M. What value would this report have if the Tolly Group reviewed BLADE Network’s website marketing information and compared it against marketing information on Cisco’s website?
"Furthermore, as stated in the Tolly Group’s Fair Testing Charter, 'competing vendors are treated fairly by involving them in key aspects of tests concerning their product,' the 'vendors involved in a competitive test are able to review the test plans,' that 'when testing is complete, we provide their results. If they believe that they are incorrect, we work with them to reconcile their results with ours.' and that 'we provide them with the opportunity to give us an official commentary on their results, the essence of which is included in any documents we might publish.' These points are completely contrary to the IPexpert commissioned Tolly Group report which clearly states that 'the Tolly Group did not contact Internetwork Experts about its product.' Based on this it appears that the Tolly Group goes against everything it stands for in the IPexpert report."
Brian McGahan - CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security)
Tolly report key finding:
IPexpert graded labs are free of charge. Internetwork Expert charges $129 for a graded lab.
4. Success stories:
Tolly report key finding:
As noted earlier, on the day Tolly collected data from each vendor's website - October 15th, 2008, IPexpert listed 1,129 individuals as having earned CCIE certifications, however, Internetwork Expert only listed 939 CCIEs, 190 CCIEs less than IPexpert.
5. Service guarantees:
Tolly report key finding:
Both CCIE training vendors offer great training investment guarantees, however, only IPexpert has no charge for rack time during the exam retake.
| Official Internetworking Expert Response: |
"The real question that people should be asking in regards to this report is why would IPexpert, a self-professed 'industry leading' company, need to resort to these questionable tactics? If your peers are not recommending a bootcamp to you, if the CCIE community isn’t recommending a bootcamp to you, why would you trust a supposedly 'unbiased' report from a completely unqualified source on why you should attend a bootcamp?"
Brian McGahan - CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security)
Official response from IPexpert to Brian McGahan:
"We will let the merit of Tolly Group's review stand for itself. They have a long-established history of comparing two vendor offerings against each other, based on specific criteria, then reporting their findings. In this case, they have screen shots taken from our site and theirs, giving proof of their findings.
"Unfortunately, Brian seems blind to the very spirit of the Tolly Group project, so I'll briefly reiterate that the QUALITY of both vendors' training products and courses are NOT in question. Again, we believe that fair-minded people readily acknowledge that IPexpert and Internetwork Expert have solid reputations for quality.
"Therefore, since 'quality' is accepted as a given among the two camps, CCIE candidates are left to decide which offers the greatest VALUE. Call it 'bang for the buck' or what have you, but people need to understand where they can get the most for the money. THAT was the spirit of the comparison!
"With that understanding, it is easy to understand why Tolly needed only visit the vendors' web sites to assess what is publicly marketed as the available offerings and at what costs. Unless Brian's argument is that Internetwork Expert does not advertise their offering fully and completely, we cannot see what his problem is.
"In response to the 'real question' posed by Mr. McGahan about why IPexpert would 'resort to questionable tactics,' one must also wonder why reputable firms like Cisco, Nortel, 3COM, Riverbed, Symantec, Foundry Networks, Siemens and many more also commission a third-party to verify and substantiate facts regarding their offering. The fact is, within an hour of the release of the Tolly Group's report, Internetwork Expert was already making changes to their website, adding and removing points to adjust for the facts made clear in the report. If they did not find themselves vulnerable by the facts, why would they have made changes to their offering?"
Matt Brooks - Vice President - IPexpert, Inc.
View more CCIE water cooler gossip.
What is your take on this Tolly report evaluating which CCIE R&S training vendor offers the best overall value?
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IPExpert's Cry For Help
An overlooked but relevant fact is that Scott Morris - largely responsible for IPExpert's success over the years - works for InternetworkExpert now. This "report" is a cry for help, a paid advertisement resulting from IPExpert's loss of mind share and market share.
If this was a legitimate report on the value for the money in the CCIE training business, a comparison would have to have been made with other CCIE training vendors. IE and IPExpert are hardly the only two players here. What about Micronics Training? What about Heinz Ulm? What about Net Master Class? What about the new Cisco 360 Learning Program? Etc.
IPexpert's Cry For Help (?)
Anon (not verified),
I'm not sure how you gained such insight into who/what was responsible for IPexpert's success, but I assure you it has not been based on the contribution of any one person. Nonetheless, thanks for contributing to the conversation!
The comparison of the IPexpert and Internetwork Expert offerings was not meant to dismiss the contributions of the other entities you cited. (Narbik at Micronics is a great instructor!) I think it's premature to assess the "new" 360/NetmasterClass offering, though.
As a reminder, the Tolly Group evaluated the publicly-available information that each vendor advertises as being included with their offering. That allowed for an objective analysis of what CCIE candidates should expect to get for the money spent.
No crying over here. :)
The Death Rattle.
I agree that this report seems to signal the ending of IPexpert in its downhill struggle.
While I don't like to think any one person can make or break a company, I think it is clear that when all of the quality reviews talk about Scott Morris and his audio products or video products or classes, and yet he is no longer part of IPexpert that is seems the world has moved on. IE is more the powerhouse than they were before! (Maybe Scott should have changed his name to Brian)
Things have moved from the Macy's and Sak's shopping into a Big Lots. Some of the same products may be there, but nothing is really the same when the brain-trust has left.
I haven't seen IE pick up Marvin yet, but perhaps when Marvin is ready he will come back to the world of training!
The report is nothing but a giant hand-waving saying "really, we are still here!". When you pay someone else to wave something around announcing that you are still there, that doesn't instill confidence IMHO.
This report is so totally
This report is so totally useless.
Folks, please visit the InternetworkExpert website and see for yourself. Why did Tolly not compare equivalent products in this report? Why did you not compare IPExperts end-to-end program with InternetworkExperts end-to-end program? Guess what! The books are included! Class-on-demand is delivered on DVD as well as over the internet. There are no time-limits on the DVD.
Tolly, you have failed utterly. What an embarrasment this report must be for you.
Brian, Brian, and Scott, you deserve a shot at setting the record straight here!
Brad... a follow-up is needed for sure!
RE: This report is so totally
Anon,
You might want to visit the IE site yourself. Their "End-to-End" program does not include classroom training. At the following URL, click the "What's included" button:
http://www.internetworkexpert.com/cciersprograms.htm
Therefore, that would not have been an apples-to-apples comparison with IPexpert's End-to-End Program:
http://www.ipexpert.com/index.cfm/product/sku/10_Day_CCIE_Routing_and_Switching_Lab_End_to_End_Program
So... looking for a comparable offering from a value perspective -- best bang for the buck -- you should look at IE's 12-day boot camp offering:
http://www.internetworkexpert.com/iebc12-rs.htm
Now, you are correct that NOW they are including the products in with that offering. However, that second paragraph under the "Product Overview" heading was added in AFTER THE RELEASE of the Tolly Group report!
Bear in mind, there are screen shots taken at the date of review, which come in handy when changes are weaseled in after the fact.
Ultimately, your assertion that the report is totally useless is only true for individuals, such as yourself, that are solidly in the IE camp already. You can't be swayed and that is OK. You are not the audience intended for the review.
The people that have been affected positively are those that have been comparison shopping for the best value they can find for their hard-earned money. Also, the community at large will benefit from the continued refinement of each vendors' offerings, as evidenced by IE's rush to make changes to their website almost immediately upon release of the report.
Competition is a good thing. The ongoing efforts of ALL vendors to continue improving quality and delivering added value for competitive prices benefits the consumer... and that is something I think everyone can agree is a positive.
Those products have always
Those products have always been in the end-to-end program. They were certainly all available at the time I purchased to the end-to-end program in 2006.
So the difference then between the two end-to-end programs is what? Live training? So what?
Graded mock labs are indeed included.
The routers in the racks are returned to their defaults before you access them just like IPExpert but you might think thats not true here.
How can Tolly do an effective job of comparing products by reading IE's website only? THEY CAN'T.
I assert, again, that this report is crap.
We need a response from IE on this, because Tolly gave a paid opinion.. as they frequently do.. that significantly misrepresents one side of the story.
RE: This report is so totally
Matt,
My personal response to this report is simpler than the one Brian McGahan wrote. In fact it is only one word, instructors.
Everyone agrees that the instructor/author is the key to any CCIE bootcamp and/or CCIE self-paced product. IPExpert has lost two of their key instructors/authors over the last three months (Scott Morris CCIEx4 and Marvin Greenlee CCIEx3). Recently IPExpert has even stopped listing the individual instructors on their R&S CCIE class pages.
http://www.ipexpert.com/index.cfm/product/sku/ccie_rs_lab_instructor_led_bootcamp
Internetwork Expert does not need fancy and/or misleading marketing to get people into our bootcamps or purchase our products. Every single 12 Day Bootcamp we run is sold out. People come to us due to the reputation of our instructors/authors and not due to some fancy marketing or misleading 3rd party reports. By paying to have this report published IPExpert seems to want to draw people’s attention away from the most important factor when purchasing a CCIE bootcamp, instructors.
Thanks!
Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 2210 (R&S, ISP Dial, Security, SP, Voice)
Brian Dennis - ARE YOU
Brian Dennis -
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I'm sorry to have to engage in this discussion, but are you SERIOUS? You REALLY need to step back, get off your high horse and rethink your position. Are you attempting to make the claim that you and Brian McGahan are the only 2 guys that know how to teach people the skills needed to pass the CCIE lab? I’ve got news for you – that’s a bunch of BS. Again, take a look at IPexpert’s success stories – and then look at yours (and other vendors on the market) – that should give you the answer you’re looking for (unless somehow in that CCIE-focused mind of yours you are able to “spin” the facts – similar to what you’re doing now! ;-). *Also let me remind you (and the general public) – your sidekick over there at IE started this entire “comparison” battle a few months ago counting the NUMBER OF SUCCESS STORIES. Now that IE no longer leads in that category – you want to spin your vision of “the best CCIE training company” by pointing to who the instructor is - you're one arrogant piece of work!
Let me ask you Brian Dennis – have you seen the IPexpert student testimonials? I can reassure you that ALL OF OUR STUDENTS give us praise and recommend our products and courses – and YOU are not the instructor. I make it a point to hire the best instructors on the market, and – you’re correct – we went from 6 to 4 fulltime instructors, but it was because of the business strategy that I decided to introduce – no other reason. Just because my instructors aren’t spamming the hell out of Groupstudy – doesn’t mean that they’re not an incredible resource. The fact is (again, respond to your insane comment above) – we have 4 phenomenal fulltime instructors. Let me repeat – we have 4 fulltime phenomenal instructors – whereas you and your sidekick at IE are the only 2 fulltime instructors on board – and (like IPexpert) – you have a few part-time, 1099 contractors available for you IF NEEDED. You love to wave the flag our way stating “IPexpert has to make false marketing claims” – well, actually – that’s what you’ve been doing at IE for months now – attempting to give the impression that your team of instructors is growing and that they’re dedicated IE employees. The fact is the 3 guys that you claim as “Internetwork Expert instructors” are working elsewhere – on other projects – fulltime – and not 100% dedicated to you and your company. So, now that we have that straight – let’s move to the next topic you’re attempting to throw out there as a major accomplish – that fact that “IE fills all of their classes” – again, I’ve never heard such a ridiculous claim. (**Brian – please realize now that the people that read this are educated, your spin isn’t going to work!). How can you even attempt to throw that statement out there when you know it doesn’t hold any water? First, review the Tolly Report – IE has 3 classes on their website in a 7 month period. We, IPexpert, have DOUBLE that (not including the private or onsite classes we do – which account for nearly HALF of our ILT). Also, we seat up to 24 students per class (and use 2 instructors on occasion) and I can tell you that our classes are jammed full and in some cases there is a waiting list. Now, getting back to your comment - your blanket statement of “we fill every class” doesn’t mean anything when you look at it like this – heck, you could cap you class size at 10 for all the general public knows – and teach 4 classes per year.
Brian – to be honest, I’ve got a lot to do – so I’m going to wrap it up here. The fact is – you and your partner just don’t get it. We’re not going to sit here and play the game of volleyball with you – attempting to convince the market who is the “best training company”. The fact is – and I’ll admit it – We’re BOTH very good at what we do – as is NLI, NMC and Narbik. The difference is that those other entities didn’t attack us (first) by making a skewed statement online (like your pal Brian McGahan did). We simply responded by having this 3rd party report conducted to put his marketing spin to rest. Obviously anyone watching us in the public spectrum knows that – by our year-after-year growth, our awards by Inc. Magazine, the number of satisfied clients (success stories), our record-breaking year in terms of revenue and our product evolution and initiatives and now our IPexpert University and Professional Services division – we’re growing, evolving and doing extremely well – there’s no way to argue that. The Tolly report was a response to Brian McGahan’s statement that “IE was the leader in CCIE training” – we responded by having a fair, unbiased, 3rd party analyst compare the value students get when selecting a CCIE training provider. We could have thrown together a skewed report of our own – outlining our strengths and your weaknesses, but we felt that marketing tactics utilizing skewed reports were not in the best interest of our clients – and to be honest – we knew how this report would turn our – in our favor – therefore we had a factual comparison done to show the community the facts. It’s evident that it has “hit home” with you and the clan over at the IE headquarters by the fact that you and your team began making changes to your website – (essentially changing your corporate policies and value-add) literally MINUTES after the report was made public.
ipexpert
If Wayne and Ipexpert worked as vigorously on customer support/products as they do on defending themselves against perceived slights , this would be
a non-issue.
RE: This report is so totally
Hey, Brian. Thanks for joining in. :)
As you are well aware, Tolly simply looked at what was advertised by IPexpert and by Internetwork Expert… sorry that doesn’t leave you with much room for spin. What WAS misleading was when you guys scrambled to make quick changes to your website when the report shined a spotlight on the deficiencies of value in your offerings.
It is unfortunate that you are now resorting to attacking the talent and accomplishments of IPexpert instructors. Jared Scrivener and Tyson Scott are both highly-accomplished instructors and engineers, each earning shining reviews from our R&S students, as well as other tracks. Vik Malhi and Mark Snow have developed and deliver what many agree to be the foremost CCIE Voice training out there.
That said, how are your Voice classes going? We heard the one last week in London was a real treat with no physical phones on-site and the instructor struggling through the material all week.
Anyhow, if IPexpert is having trouble with instructors, you must know something these people don’t:
http://tinyurl.com/BRIAN-is-SAD
You mentioned that "Every single 12 Day Bootcamp we run is sold out." Then what are you so worried about? Rest easy, get some fresh air.
Individuals will decide what’s important. :)