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Wendell Odom

Would you Hire the Guy with the CS Degree, or not?

By wendell on Mon, 03/30/09 - 7:54pm.

I'm taking a break from the CCNA/CCNP lab series for today to take a look at a couple of career-oriented topics. And since I don't hire anyone, it's time for a survey as well... and you're the hiring manager.

So, here's the hullabaloo. (Man, blogging can be freeing comparing to cranking out a book - hullabaloo would never get past the editors at Cisco Press.) Anyway, Network World published some articles today about careers and the relevance of Computer Science (CS) degrees. Here's one about whether CS degrees matter any more, and here's another stating most of the positives about CS degrees today. Regardless of your thinking about whether CS degrees are relevant in 2009, it makes for some interesting reading.

So, let me start by taking a paragraph to talk about my own experience with a CS degree - hopefully it'll have something to do with the topic at hand.

First off, I must admit that the first thing these articles got me thinking about was my own time getting a BS in Information and Computer Science (BSICS) from Ga. Tech. Even back then, you could truly geek out, get curious about how stuff worked, and get pretty deep even with a Bachelors degree, with 30 courses in-major required for graduation. (It used to make me laugh when my buddies at the OTHER in-state schools had to take less than 10 in-major classes to get their degrees... but maybe they really did end up with a broader educational base, or at least they learned a few more drinking games than me. Anyway...)  It was the good old days of waiting in line for klunky VT-100 terminals to get into the Cyber, waiting 20 minutes on printouts of compiles, going there (regularly) at 4AM to avoid the lines... at least I missed the punch cards at our school by just 1 year. And then, hallelujah, we even got IBM PCs before I skedaddled... did a project modeling the performance of 10 Mbps Ethernet under different load, proving with simulators that the bend in the curve happened around 30% utilization with shared Ethernet. Had some cool professors, some not. Mainly, learned a lot, had a lot of fun.

There's no way my career success happens as it has without my own CS degree. Without it, maybe I'd have had different success, or even more success, but it certainly shaped my own career. Believe it or not, I still occasionally write something for a book and think "wow, I first learned that in college".

So, how does all this all link in to something that matters to "us"? Our time together in this space focuses on Cisco certs, how to get them, geeky details on some topics, the practical stuff for getting prepared in less time with less $$$. For most of us that read/post here, you're not at a point in your life where you're thinking "do I get a degree? A CS degree even? (Is that a poor assumption on my part?)

So, let me pose a couple of questions, and get your opinions. Although I write a lot, I don't hire a lot (1 part time guy - Masters degree and 1 Cisco cert, since that's the topic of the day), so let's hear what you think.

Here's question 1, with survey. You're now the boss of your group. You need to hire one person to fill a job. Imagine any such job, even your job (there's a vacancy now that you have a new job, right?) Anyway, three candidates. They are all EXACTLY EQUAL in terms of the applicability of their REAL SKILLS for the job you're hiring them for. (Why? I want to drill down on other differences.) You are also not Cisco nor a Cisco partner. Then, the three candidates are different as follows - which would you hire?

 

Why? You can tell me what other criteria you'd use to pick between them, but only if you think two or more tie on the above. (Of course, you can really post anything you want, but you know what I mean.)

Question 2 is open-ended. Say you get one shot at a wish from a genie. In this wish, you have to change to be 32 years old, with a CS degree, with 10 years IT experience. You'd have no IT certs, you'd have had lots of interesting fulfilling work, and relevant experience. Do you take the wish? And why?

OK folks, fire away - let's get this hullaballoo started.

I'm very surprised this still comes up.

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By Depaul (not verified) on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 7:30pm.

I remember back in the dot com days, companies were ripping kids out of college before graduation and giving them jobs starting at 80k. Since I was still in High School during those, I didn't get to take advantage but I used to think that would be me.

But when the dot com bubble burst, the job market became very competitive. So the rule of thumb quickly became, what can you do to make yourself look better then the competition. Unfortunately, with the current recession, that seems to be the case again.

I currently have my Bachelors Degree and CCNA (working on CCNP). But after working in this industry for a few years you quickly learn that it really doesn't matter if you went to college or not. I have several co-workers who didn't go to college or even have a Liberal Arts college degree (e.g. Psychology). The only thing that does matter is Experience, it doesn't really matter what degree or certifications you have. The more Experience you have the more money you'll make. Degrees and certifications are used to get you up the ladder quicker.

The only real valid argument for having a college degree, is that certifications expire. College degrees will last you a life time. Plus if you ever have an inclination to move out of the trenches and become a CTO or CIO, the college degree will most likely be required.

Im suprised as well.

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By Anon (not verified) on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 11:00pm.

You guys have to be kidding me. Your trying to compare a Bachelors degree in Computer Science to some manufacturer certs? Dont get me wrong, Cisco is a GREAT company, and the certifications are certainly worth something, but you cant compare that to a College Education.

A college degree should prepare you to truly understand what you are working on in that chosen field, and not just how to fix a "part" of it. Its the equivalent of knowing how to design a engine, versus just knowing how to fix it.

I personally have a CS Degree, and I work in the networking industry. I may or may not get some certifications, and it may or may not help me out on a very specific moment in my life. However, having a degree to fall back on will ALWAYS be valuable.

Spending 4 (or in my case, 5 :) ) years of my life working towards a degree taught me so much more then just the topics that the professors were trying to teach me (programing, math, design, etc). It taught me how to interact with people, how to solve "real life" problems, how to work around situations, etc. These are things that you learn in college regardless of the topic you choose to study. No manufacturer certification is going to "teach" you that.

I'm sure all those guys that decided to get there Novel certifications instead of getting a worthwhile degree are very happy right now..

We should be encouraging our kids to go to college, learn math, learn science. If not, we will become a nation of poorly educated automatons that know how to do "show run" and "config t" very well, but cant add 3 numbers together. We'll be running the equipment we can no longer design, nor manufacturer. That is NOT a position we want to be in.

If I was hiring, (and I do from time to time), 9 times out of 10 I tend to shy away from people with lots of certifications, versus someone that has a good education, and has worked in a field for some time and shows problem solving skills. Anyone can go on cert killer, test king, or whatever, and pass ANY written test in a matter of days.

Rant over.. :)

I am currently in the

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By Anon (not verified) on Sun, 06/07/2009 - 4:42am.

I am currently in the position of a total career change,due to a back injury. I can accept the point that yes you can go download a test etc memorise the answers, get a pass etc.... The reality is you will soon come unstuck when asked to do something you do't actually understand. Regarding degrees I don't have one however through a lot of time and effort I am now an MCSA, looking to get my CCENT asnd then some lol. I am however interested in getting a degree but all of the universities I contact want me to take 4-5 yrs ( I live in uk btw ). My point being in the last yr of the degree course they expect you to be obtaining CCNA/CCNP MCSA then in 4th year MCSE having already attained my MCSA why can I not simply get credit for my existing qualification? As from where I sit a degree whilst all very nice just shows an ability to learn and at 43 I really dont want to take another 4 yrs out.

Must have hit a nerve...

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By Anon (not verified) on Tue, 06/09/2009 - 2:08pm.

I personally knew how to interact with people before college. I'm not sure how one gets through 18 years of his or her life without knowing how to interact with people. I'm glad college could help you out with that though.

I don't see a good case here for someone going to college for a CS degree. What I see here is the constant rambling about how people MUST get college degrees. I know way too many people who have been successful and surpassed those with college degrees, this is clearly not a one size fits all kind of thing and we shouldn't be force feeding our kids. I also know way too many people who have gone to college for degrees and then had to go back for another degree or learn how to do something else because they didn't know what they wanted to do when they went to college, that's just what they were "supposed" to do. You may not think that is such a bad thing but ask them about it 15 years later when they are still working on paying off college debt with a total debt of 50K+ and only a 40K salary.

I personally got my CCIE, my ROI on that certification paid itself off in 6 months. How many people can say that about a college degree?

Hmm.. good question. I

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By Commander Cool (not verified) on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 11:28pm.

Hmm.. good question.
I suppose it would depend on the job. If it was a Cisco/networking intensive job, I would hire the person with the CCxP. But if it were a technology related job with not much networking knowledge required, then probably the CS degree guy.

I personally hope to become Candidate 4 (a.k.a. the ideal candidate :) )I'll have my B.S. in CIS and my CCxP.

As for the second question, it's a tough one. I probably wouldn't take it. Sure, having that experience would be nice, but how much more awesome would that experience turn out to be if you got it WITH your certs?

It Depends

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By DanC (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 12:00am.

I'd want to know more about their problem solving abilities and how they react under stress - especially in unique situations other than their core competency. The ability to work as a team player is important. The CCIE wins this round.

I'd prefer a person with excellent writing and verbal skills. Here the college grads get the nod.

Much depends on the IT Dept doing the hiring and the ambitions of the candidates. Will the candidate have the ability to build a career in the company? Here's where the college grads might fit. Back to the team issue - I'd prefer the CS candidate. They will interface better with others in the Dept. Is the job a dead end? - in that there is no room for advancement. In that case they will all quit. If the dead end job is every IT person's dream job the CCIE might fit.

You did not state when the college canditates graduated. Since they have the required skills one must assume they have practical experience but do not have the cert to demonstrate that proficiency.

My choice

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By Chad (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 10:02am.

I chose candidate three, even though I am candidate one (HS Grad, CCIE).

I like the commitment of someone to finish college and obtain their degree. Also, since I am not Cisco or a Cisco VAR, there really is nothing that would require an Engineer of mine to have their CCIE.

For question 2, I would not take the wish. But, mostly because I do not want to be older than I am. If I was in my late 30s to 40s I would take it in a heartbeat.

My 0.02

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By Sean Wilkins (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 2:03pm.

Overall, to me this depends on the type of job which is going to be filled and what the duties of the job are. If you are looking to hire a router/switch jock that works within their group and has no customer face then no real college experience is needed only sheer experience on the equipment (Design experience is not even needed on most gigs). Now this changes drastically if your job is a consultant for multiple customers and most of your time is spent on customer premises and/or customer facing duties. Why does this matter? This is because this type of job is not based on sheer technical knowledge but on 50% technical skills and 50% "soft" skills. "Soft" skills being the writing of the documentation, interaction with the clients, ability to work with employees (who think you may be taking their jobs) among other things. These types of skills are not taught well in most high schools (at least not mine) and are taught and refined in a college setting.

Now me, my journey was a little interesting, I had an AS in IS when I started in the industry (15+ years ago) and obtained my CCNP/CCDP certs 10 years ago. In this midst of this I also finished my BS and MS degrees so I have seen what this experience has changed since I started.

How about Candidate 4?

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By Mark Gallagher (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 4:28pm.

Let's say a guy with no certs, no degree but a long history of successful project work and demonstrable skills? Add in a security clearance and a stint in the military? Lots of guys like that have amazing troubleshooting skils and have been around long enough to know about the good, bad, and ugly of previous waves of techonolgy...

I've worked with alot of

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By Anon (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 8:29pm.

I've worked with alot of people. 9 out of 10 don't have a college/universtity degree and half don't even have CCNA. But give them a router/switch and tell them to do amazing things to them ...

If I was a prospective employer, I'd be looking at a person's willingness and drive to learn and do more.

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About Cisco Cert Zone

Odom, CCIE No, 1624, splits time between writing books for Cisco Press and teaching classes for Skyline ATS. In his 25-ish years in the networking industry, he has worked as as a pre-sale and post-sale SE for a few networking vendors, as well as a network engineer implementing network technology. Wendell has spent the majority of the last 15 years teaching, consulting, and writing about networking technologies, most of which in some way relate to Cisco products. His books include titles on QoS, CCIE R/S, as well as several titles related to CCNA certification, including the September 2007 book CCNA Official Exam Certification Library (CCNA Exam 640-802) (Read a sneak peek of chapter 7). Click for the list of current titles by Wendell.